Creating a CSL discipline

Well not really a comment but on the same subject, this article from yesterday’s FT relates the rather sorry state of affairs in UK compared with USA. Perhaps an oportunity for Bazza?

FT.com / Comment & analysis / Comment – UK’s myopic vision of China

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/097a0ac0-0b83-11db-b97f-0000779e2340,_i_rssPage=0a8cf74c-6d6d-11da-a4df-0000779e2340.html

The comment by James resonates with me.

I spoke to a few people on Skype before I settled on my excellent language partner. There seems to be a few Chinese (women in particular??) who want to turn a hand to teaching Mandarin to English speakers. If they are in the early stages and want to practice before they charge then this can make for a great language partner as they get the practice they want from explaining to you so most of the session is focused on learning Chinese.

However I spoke to two who had experiance of teaching Chinese children and seemed convinced that a similar approach must work with a foriengner (after all we have the same or less Mandarin capabilites as a small Chinese child). They weren’t patronising as such but were completly inflexible and this approach doesn’t work with adults (even though I firmly believe that many of us learners should take some cues from how children learn).

Okay I haven’t spoken to enough people to know for sure but I think instilling a flexible approach working from a toolkit of possible solutions will be hard. A rigid inflexible system may seem more natural to many of the teachers.

I must have been lucky as my current Skype partner is not only prepared to adapt she is also curious about English culture and always has one or two questions along these lines for me (as James pointed out, a knowledge of the students culture is important).

Mike,

You’re right that we do not need a lot of teachers here on CPod. The idea for us is to go for quality (excluding me) because the lessons are scalable. My plan is to build a small but ferocious team of dedicated, talented people: teachers, content writers, hosts, etc. I think that is coming together well.

The fact is, however, that Mandarin is becoming a global language. Schools around the world will require trained, competent teachers. (I wish they all just rely on CPod, but you know how it is…) Right now there is no mechanism in place to churn out the numbers of teacher that are needed. This will stunt the development of Mandarin around the world and add to the (false) notion that it is a difficult, impenetrable language. The world needs a proper CSL discipline.

We have indeed been in contact with various corporations and we’ve put much work into creating a service that should suit their HR needs. That will take off over the coming weeks and months. I’ll let you know more as it happens.

As to your first point, I think a talented teacher is a talented teacher. At the advanced levels you need to have a native speaker, but for beginners that’s not completely necessary. It could be an ABC, a native, or anyone else. The key to teaching a language, I would argue, is not what the teacher knows. It’s how she initiates the process of language acquisition amongst the learners. That is not culture specific.

Ken I agree, on a one to one language teachers should be adaptable, but I have certainly met one or two that aren’t.

Yeah I need to think further on how a second language differs from a first for sure. I can see that there will be big differences but I am still suspicious that many of use are not encouraged to use some of the similar mechanisms that serve children so well (and remember that children can often pick up a second language pretty well even after learning the first).

I think that adults often try to over intellectualise language learning. We think that we can no longer learn in a natural way so we try to batter the problem to death with our bulging intellects (the advantage we do have over children). I am pretty sure that you can knead and massage a little bit of that childhood flexibility even into an older ossified brain.

Chris

Well written and much I agree with you about children but don’t sell us adults short. I think one difference is how you interpret that as adults we intellectualize too much. I think that is part of communication that we much more experienced animals try to make or explain our selves as compared to children or for that matter dogs and kittys to take it to the extreme. You and I can quickly learn “wo yao…….. “just as a child does; first with cries then with language and could do in many languages quickly if necessary to satisfy primal desires. But language eventually is all about nuanse . So for you, me, Ken and all Cpod folk its about “Ok but what if I want to say…..” Kids on the other hand just barrel along and mature in communication skills as they also mature in understanding life. I think this is similar to sometimes I wish I had the body I once had and the experiences I now. This would be bliss. Ah well, Perhaps in Heaven.

Ken

Thanks for the reply. I can not agree more about how to teach the teachers. But the one point I am interested is how will you market or support CPod to corporate or school district accounts. I am sure they will want to measure and monitor their $’s spent. Whereas with us we vote individually as to the value (and it can obviously be different for every single paid or listening CPoddie. As Aric says “when you want it where you want it on your terms…” Not necessarily what the admin people want to here if trying to use for a big group or for that matter teaching teachers.

Mike in Jubei

Ken, let me throw in a thought:

As several people have said, we don’t need a lot of teachers. With podcasts and videos, a few teachers can reach many students. What makes it stick is a combination of good teaching and ample practice. So we need “practice partners” who know what they’re doing. You wrote some good guidelines for those practices. The challenge for the partner is to facilitate practice, rather than “teach” the language. They need to gage the students vocabulary, and stretch it without becoming unintelligible. They provide feedback on prononciation, but keep the conversation moving. They need TONS of level-appropriate talking points. If Maryland had a good training program for practice partners, and a teaching resource like CP, they could get the job done.

Slán, Conrad

Gaelic, now that is just going to confuse everybody (I don’t speak it but google helped out)

Ken, I think the concept of facilitators is good one. Assuming there is a large enough input resource out there (already happening) then what people like me need is someone to help tap it.

The point has been made well that a few good teachers can provide instruction and materials how ever with the best will in the world they can’t stay behind for a few minutes after class to answer those akward questions that are very specific to individuals.

Hi Steven – It’s up, but responds very slowly from here (NY). It looks like a web presence for the Confucius Institute. There are links to interactive lessons at Elementary and Intermediate lessons. The English is stilted (“Welcome you all to understand Chinese food culture!”) but not bad. I’ll let you know when I can browse further.

One suggestion I read somewhere that makes sense to me is to begin CSL with intensive classroom practice in SPOKEN Chinese, and not emphasize reading and writing until the students have a very basic (but functional) vocabulary, and are able to speak, understand and react to basic, everday phrases and ideas. The second or even third semester/term is when the student can begin to read and write.

That’s how kids learn any language. I could already speak and understand my mother tongue before I had to start reading or writing it.

Giving CSL students this intense practice in the spoken language would boost their confidence and get them actually “thinking in Chinese” (internalizing syntax and sentence structures) before they have to worry about HanZi.

This is slightly off topic, CFL (Chinese as a Foreign Language) vs. CSL, but I’ll persevere.

I have been teaching Mandarin Chinese in a public high school in the United States for the past fifteen years. I can tell you that much of what you say here is true: the state of the field hasn’t made much progress. As I write this, I’m attending a summer institute in Taipei with 29 of the best and brightest teachers of Chinese that the field has to offer. They are all well-educated, well-intentioned native speakers of Chinese; they are also, for the most part, ill-equipped to help broadcast the language to anyone but the most traditional and grade-motivated learner. When I talk about things like grades being a waste of time and an interfering and even harmful element in the learning process, they look at me as if I’m speaking Martian; when I talk about such things as the affective domain (taking care of students’ self-esteem), they think I’m a wimp.

The Chinese language teaching field isn’t the only one in need of liberalization: other foreign languages, English as a second or foreign language, and indeed almost all of academia as it’s presently constituted, could use a good dose of what I like to call classroom re-imaging: the real-life equivalent of erasing the hard drive and starting over. And that’s not to say there aren’t many wonderful things happening in education, and in the CFL area specifically. Check out Cynthia Ning’s wonderful Communicating in Chinese series (Yale University Press) for Chinese 1 and 2. It’s currently being revised and an intermediate-level DVD-based text is in the works. Her materials would work wonderfully with CPod materials.

My philosophy of teaching is comprised of several key beliefs and attendant techniques. These beliefs come from a variety of places: my upbringing; my world experiences; my education; and the many influences, positive and negative, from the many years I myself spent as a student.

Teach students first, subject second

It’s one thing to teach highly motivated learners in a target language-rich environment; it’s entirely another matter to teach CFL to unmotivated or poorly motivated public high school students, in a target language-poor environment. High school students often come to us as fragile and even damaged beings, and often with many unmet basic human needs. They’ve also been beat down by many years in the prison system of public schools. We first need to try to take care of their basic needs before they are willing, or indeed able, to learn. As an example, I always have food on hand for students who come to class hungry, and students are allowed to eat in class. The room is like a living room or lounge, with comfy chairs and sofas, and no rigid seating assignments. Students themselves decorate the room, at the beginning of the year, and throughout the year. We have a refrigerator and microwave, and students are free as anyone to use these communal resources. Everyone, including me, is responsible for keeping the room tidy, and for sharing whatever we bring to class. And everyone, including me, is called to account for showing disrespect for others. By the end of the first year, most everyone is close, and feels okay about making mistakes, or taking chances with the language, or questioning my “authority”, as they know there is a safety net of mutual support. It’s very similar to the feelings I have in CPod discussions: lots of mutual help, support, and encouragement.

After these basic student needs are dealt with, we also need to consider students’ wants. Why are they taking our course and what do they want to learn? If we let learners mold their own curricula, they see themselves as active participants in their own learning. This empowerment adds to the joy of learning and increases personal motivation.

Intrinsic motivation is paramount

Even in an elective course, students aren’t necessarily in the class because of the subject matter. They might be in the class because of a friend, or because of a pushy parent. Because of this, one of my first goals is to make each and every student want to be in my class and want to learn a new language. There is no greater motivation than self-motivation. If one wants to learn something, and enjoys her- or himself in the pursuit of that learning, s/he will have a much easier time of it than one who isn’t self-motivated and isn’t having fun. I like the idea linking curricular goals with learners’ interests, and helping students to discover their unique learning styles and interests and develop their personal learning strategies. One of the first “tests” I give is a learning styles assessment. From the beginning, students are made aware of their unique abilities.

Teacher as guide, facilitator, and co-learner

I am concerned that students contribute to the learning process. In every lesson students’ interests, experiences and perspectives are considered as they negotiate meaning with their co-learners. Techniques used to elicit student input include brain-storming sessions, journals, student-authored skits, etc. This also fits in with the idea of the classroom as a democracy, where students and teachers alike are responsible for their own learning. Those students who aren’t comfortable with any aspect of class are free to opt out, without fear of some penalty or other (i.e., lowered grade).

Teach according to sound bases of what works (according to empirical research as well as personal observation)

I’ve been teaching for many years using a mishmash of methods and techniques. I try to teach according to sound bases of what I find works, according to empirical research as well as based on personal observations. And while I have a healthy respect for the “authorities” in the field of second language learning, and their theories of language acquisition, yet I also have no problem ignoring even the most sage advice if I feel something doesn’t work. I firmly believe in questioning authority, including my own.

Do whatever works & damn the consequences

One of the first things I learned when I began my teaching career was: don’t ask permission for doing anything that might be viewed as against the rules; it’s easier to apologize after the fact. Administrators, in as much as they stand in a teacher’s way, are to be viewed with skepticism as appendages of the state and status quo; in as much as they support you and leave you alone they are to be applauded.

Concern for students’ affective domain

Related to the idea of teaching students first and subject second is a concern for the students’ affective domain. Beyond the basic human needs addressed above, students need a non-threatening environment, one where they feel their contributions are as valid and valuable as anyone else’s; and one where mutual respect is a given, for students and teacher alike: a place where they are given free rein to develop self-confidence and a belief they can, and have a right to stand up to power and authority.

Concern for multiple intelligences

Students are individuals, with disparate learning styles and interests. It’s important to use a wide range of techniques as one helps students on the road to communicating in a second language. It’s equally important to help students develop an understanding of their own preferred style or styles of learning, as well as those of their classmates. I provide students with tools to use as they see fit. I’ve designed Character flashcards for all the vocabulary, and developed techniques for using them, in intrapersonal as well as interpersonal, and even communal ways. Flashcards are especially appreciated by the kinesthetic (or hands-on) learner. I’ve also written several accompanying glossaries & fun sheets, to help students approach new, and often very challenging material from as many varied directions as possible. Massive use is made of realia: authentic materials of one sort or another. And one can never forget to mind Krashen’s concept of comprehensible input. And perhaps one of the best ways to learn is in non-threatening “performance” activities, designed to use real language in authentic or simulated situations to achieve some objective or function (i.e., shopping, getting someone’s phone number for your little black book, going out for dinner, etc.).

Getting out of the classroom is also a great way to learn. Simply taking the metro downtown, or walking to a park, is a real motivator. Other popular destinations include the zoo, to learn about animals, including homo sapiens, and their various attributes and actions; to museums; to Asian markets for a little bargaining action (ala, Video Hotpot); and to local Chinese restaurants.

Learning how to learn

Aligned with the notion of various learning styles is learning strategies that work with particular styles of learning. Some students are already adept at developing personal strategies for learning; other students need even the concept of strategy made explicit as they discover what works for them. I feel a teacher’s role is to guide students in this pursuit to become independent & self-confident learners. I also believe the evidence exists that explicit strategy training has a positive effect of student performance.

Don’t take yourself too seriously & have fun

Oscar Wilde once said, “seriousness is the last refuge of the shallow.” Often times, teachers take themselves too seriously, especially if they view themselves as “experts” and “authorities” and occasionally even martyrs. These types of teachers view humor as a threat to the solemnity of the proceedings, to the sanctity of the classroom as cathedral, and as a threat to their personal authority. Humor to me is an emolument to the abrasive public school construct. Laugh and learn, that’s my motto (and might very well be Cpod’s as well).

对不起。

Dai,

I think I’d would agree with more or less everything here, and particularly

Teacher as guide, facilitator, and co-learner
Concern for students’ affective domain
Concern for multiple intelligences
Learning how to learn
Don’t take yourself too seriously & have fun

As a fellow believer in the humanistic approach, we have much in common. Whether CSL, or CFL, we need to incorporate these humanistic ideas into an approach – in sharp contrast with traditional teaching (including traditional ESL). We must also display a greater understanding of the psychology of learning and what the student goes through, how they differ, etc. Anyone young learner will almost certainly react positively to that.

I’d like to know what you would actually retain from the traditional approach. Although I reject the old methods and (lack of) psychology, I do believe that class-time should be used to impart as much content as possible. I’ve seen teachers spend far too much time on developing self-esteem to the detriment of actually instructing people in anything. I think the best way to boost a kid’s self-esteem is to have him make progress in school. A classroom that is focused and coached into reaching that sense of achievement is a good place to be. I think it could have a positive effect on all but the most troubled kids. High school is not an area where I have any experience, so I’d like to hear your input on that.

Ken Carroll

I’m late to the party on this topic, but have some thoughts I’d like to share.

If I go to the gym and hire a personal trainer, he or she does not simply start “training” me. First, the trainer has to have a clear understanding of what my goals are, how and why I have these goals, how much time I am willing to put into my regime, what my current state of health is, and so forth. The same kind of thinking applies 100% to learning mandarin, or any language, for that matter. Why is the student studying mandarin ? What is his or her goal ? What is the motivation – is it simply curiosity, or does the students job depend on it ? How much time is he or she willing to dedicate ? How has the student acquired skills and knowledge most effectively in the past ? Etc; etc. Of these factors, I’d suggest the most important , and the one that needs to be understood first, is the goal(s) of the student. To paraphrase a well known saying business leaders quote a lot : seek first to understand, then be understood. I believe there is no “best” way to teach mandarin, and until the teacher(s) and student both understand the specific fators for the student, to say this method or that method is “best” is risky. The most effective method for a high school student in the west, who has never been to China, but who is required to take a foreign language in order to graduate is going to be a lot different than a Managing Director for a Fortune 100 company who has just been posted in Beijing, and that is going to be a lot different than a new university graduate who realizes that the future belongs to China and who is willing to do whatever it takes to embrace the language and culture. Context is another factor that will effect the curriculum – I’m one of the fortunate ones who has been able to live in China for long chunks of time. That’s allowed me to learn the language, somewhat, even with lots of mediocre teachers and schools. Being immersed in China 7 x 24 makes it easier, in a major way, than someone who goes to a 90 minute lesson every day, but then steps out into their world of english, french,, german, or whatever. It follows then that what’s best for an in-country student may not be the same as one out of China.

Regarding “Old school” teaching styles, millions of non-chinese people around the world who speak mandarin learned via the traditional, rote way. Including me. We can’t automatically conclude that method is out-dated and ineffective. From my perspective, If it works for somebody, then for that person, that’s the best way.

I tend to view CPod as a tool. For some, it will be a tool that is simply one of many. For others, it could be the only tool they really need. If CPod builds the hands-down, best tool in the world for learning mandarin, then the results will take care of themselves. You know – build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door !

Ma ding,
For me the issue is to try to identify language learning universals. They can can be seen at the level of psychology, information processing, and possibly at the emotional, or ‘affective’ level.

I also think it’s useful to distinguish between what can be achieved in the classroom, from the type of learning that happens in the natural L2 environment. Anyone who (a) wants to learn a new language, (b) takes classes, and (c) is exposed to it (on a visit or extended stay in China, for example) will probably acquire it to some extent, so it becomes difficult to tell how much they actually learn from the formal instruction. I’ve seen people attribute progress in the language to the classroom, when in fact, it was the experience in the natural venvironment that did the trick. I’m convinced that traditional methods (rote memorization, parroting information, failure to use the language to communicte, etc) are not very ineffective. There are some much better alternatives and the universals point to those.

There is a critical period for this to happen so that most of the linguistic heavy lifting is done by the time the kid is 7 years old. The brain gradually backs off in this endeavor after that age.

I would caution against this assumption. I think society changes around the child, and it’s not all the child’s brain. I say this because I know personally several people who made a switch in languages post age seven, these people today do not differ from a native speaker in the new language. The ability for an adult to ‘be like a child’ again in society is very very hard though. If I could get myself into Chinese preschool I’m positive my Chinese would get better by leaps and bounds, but the desks are way too small.

Educationally, universals will steer us in the right direction.

When people choose a recipient of their cash, they don’t think in universals, they use a whole lot of other judgements which they create for themselves.

In order to fund all of the educational advances, we have to keep tabs on the business realities, including the attitudes preconceptions and motivations of the customers, whether or not they’re realistic. You can change the goods to match the customer, or change the customer’s expectations, or both. The only thing you can’t get away with is pretending it’s not there. There are at least two incompatible learning orientations in the world, each valid in context. My aim was to illustrate what could easily be overlooked by one who can’t speak so freely, but could be planned around at the outset, before it has a chance to become a perceived problem.

If a whole new set of people around the world are going to start this New Thing of learning Chinese, their first impressions of the activity will be the most important to understand and control, from a financial or project viewpoint. They will differ markedly, depending on their country of primary educational values, and it won’t be easy to decide when to work to their expectations and when change them to ours.

HEAVYWEIGHTS -Hi Ken! I wasn’t sure from your reply if you were agreeing or disagreeing that most of the linguistic heavy lifting is done before age seven. To talk exact percentages, I had 0% English before age 6.5. If one supposses that there is some sort of biological language development, like growing facial hair, then I would say my mind prepped me perfectly to pick up a second language AFTER age 6.5. My brother started at 9 years old. When I’ve pushed profs in the field, they just fudge and say, well it’s before 13 y.o. then. I say “Yah, whatever–I think you don’t really know.” With that said, I have to say my ‘social environment’ changed on a dime to 100% English, including my parents who speak English, creating a total new English cocoon for me. This kind of new social cocoon is almost impossible for an adult, but it implies 0% biological determinism. Can Cpod sponsor a new reality show, stick a person in a house and create a total Chinese world for him/her. Six months later we can see via the video cams whether they’ve exploded or are cursing in Chinese! I may consider some biology, especially after seeing on t.v. last night the kid that can tell you what number you’ve dialed just from hearing the beeps as you push the buttons on your cell phone.

MEASURE WORD PEDAGOGY – Btw, I was thinking about the elementary lesson on playing the piano. I think almost all Chinese language materials, and I think even Cpod now, unless it changes, creates ‘crippled-input’ that prevents me from properly learning measure words and classifiers so that they become intuitive. No where in that lesson did the measure word for piano get introduced. There is no measure word for piano in any of the expansion exercises either. Right now I have no idea how to say ‘ look there is A piano’. There’s no way for me to even look it up in my dictionary. The only way right now is for me to go look in my grammar book and hunt and peck for it, or ask a Chinese speaker. Can I suggest a ‘principle’ for teaching Chinese is that measure words must be introduced at the same time a new noun is introduced. I’m pretty sure in the span of a 10-15 second dialogue between a mother and child in Chinese about a piano, the proper measure word is used and thus passed on to the child. That 1 % of input is what makes a world of difference!

Yeah, I’ve never gone along with all that age related stuff. Sure there are critical periods for different kinds of learning, and that applies to all mammals and birds, but I think that in human language learning there are a lot of other variables that can have more impact. Besides, learning a second language is quite different from learing your first and only way to ask your one reliable human companion and provier (Mum) to provide your basic life needs. If you have very low competency in your first language, it is harder to acquire a second language. Something’s going on there. So I also reject suggestions that we should model our own learning on how children acquire language. There is so much difference in environment, motivation, past experience of life and of communicating, and other differences we can’t imagine. No, no, for us if it works (right outcomes) and we enjoy it and it causes us to keep going on, then it’s good, that’s the test.

Lantian, you make a good point about measure words, though I’m not sure that it applies so much to the level of the lesson you were studying, as the the level at which you normally work. I use the Times English-Chinese Dictionary and it usually gives me the measure words, in this case jia4. But I would have translated that particular example “Look there is a piano” into Chinese as “Look there is piano”. Anyway, it had occurred to me before that when learning European languages you learn the gender (and therefore the articles) at the same time as the noun, as a matter of routine, and I’d wondered why a similar thing isn’t done with measure words. I’ve looked at a lot of books and other courses, and they all ignore measure words when learning new nouns. There must be some reason?

There’s a few people here who are progressing at a rapid rate, putting a lot of effort into it, trying to skill up as quickly and thoroughly as they can. There’s also those like me who are doing it for the sheer pleasure of it. While expecting to get quality results eventually, and to use our time efficiently towards that end, any falure or slowness would be inconsequential, so long as the enjoyment was still there and there was no wrongness in the learning. It’s the people whose motivation is pointed at rapid results, who post here most, it seems to me. I think I’m far from alone in regarding this as a “pointless” but fascinating hobby, although I don’t see many others coming out here and saying so. In this place it almost feels improper to admit that Chinese study isn’t very important in my life, but I enjoy doing it anyway whenever I can fit it in.

For rapid progress, things like being in a totally Chinese speaking environment etc are ideal. For us mob who just love doing it, those desirable aids to rapid learning are not important. We just want to do the little bit that we do and do it right, to get good personal value for the personal time’ve put into it as a break in between the more obligatory (or boring) parts of our lives. Available study time is much shorter, so quality of use of that time is very important, and a good teacher can help to improve efficiency while increasing pleasure and motivation.

Hi AuntySue, it’s good to see you back here posting. About “and they all ignore measure words when learning new nouns. There must be some reason?” I think there is no real reason, except for expediency when creating materials. I think introducing the measure/classifier as part of a noun is as basic and natural as it gets, and it’s a wonder to me why it’s not a typical part of materials. I think the separation to it’s own chapter for example is more a holdover from academics putting together materials that aren’t holistic, and for me it just makes it harder than it needs to be.

I’m glad you’ve got a better dictionary than me, wo kan dao yi jia gang qi! It’s just like learning to associate genders with words in other languages.

About learning Chinese for fun, yah that’s why I’m always pushing for easier, more variety and interaction. Nothing tells me it has to be hard!