The feedback I received from yesterday’s post about newbies was useful. There are different opinions as to why the newbies don’t post a lot of comments.
John Pasden mentioned that freshmen Mandarin programs on universities usually whittle down considerably after a few weeks, and certainly by year two. The people who fizzle out are perhaps analogous to some of our newbies: people who aren’t hugely interested in Mandarin, but who give it a try. Is there the same phenomenon at work with our newbies on ChinesePod? For sure, to a certain extent, but there should also be an ever increasing number of new newbies (as it were) visiting the site, and they don’t post much either, even though some of them have to be serious potential learners. The first generation of newbie CPod learners were a vocal group, but they have moved on to the next level and haven’t been replaced by a second generation of vocal newbies. Why aren’t there more coming through?
Aunty Sue’s point is that it’s a question of WIIFM – what’s in it for me? Newbies just don’t find the existing discussions relevant. Entering a discussion half-way through is difficult enough, but if everyone else is obviously on familiar terms and rambling on about things that are relevant to a much more advanced learner, then it doesn’t feel very inviting. I believe there is much truth in this. One cause is the fact that the ‘RECENT COMMENTS’ link on the home page is based on time, not level or subject. People tend to follow that link to find out the latest comment, not necessarily the most relevant. The ‘hard core’ elemantaries and above may be piling in there, but is it relevant to the newbie? Quite often it is not. I also agree with the comment that the general level of discussion can be quite intellectual, and this may not appeal to someone who just wants to learn how to say “I like tea“. Lantian, Chris, and others all made insightful comments too.
How about the guys from the forums? Bazza? Marchey? What are your comments on newbies, newbie needs, and the dearth of newbie comments? Maybe the new newbies are hanging out over there.
Ken Carroll
pretzellogic on 
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{ 16 comments… read them below or add one }
Ken
I am a bit confused by your comment. Obviously you know more than we do. Are you implying there are (1) not as many Newbies posting? or (2)the rate of new subscribers is down?
Mike in Jubei
Mike.
I most definitely mean that the new newbies are not posting as often as the old ones did. There are more and more unique visits to the site each month and our data shows more and more newbies amongst them. However, these new chaps aren’t as active on the forums as we would like.
Ken
I think it could also be attributed to the time factor. I once heard a podcast I really wanted to comment on, but when I looked at it, the podcast was so long ago that I felt “what’s the use, it’s old news, no one will read or respond to my comment”. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I like to start from the beginning. Even though I understand every podcast requires no previous podcast to listen to, I still like to start at #1. For those who are like me, seeing that podcast #1 was nearly a year ago, it doesn’t seem relevant to post a comment concerning it.
I agree with Auntie Sue that some just don’t want to lose face, seeing that most of us regular posters are at advanced levels now. They don’t want to feel dumb asking a question like, “How do you say ‘Hello?’”
Maybe there can be a forum strictly for newbies, like a “Newbie Network”. Of course this would require us to declare our level of learning.
On a side note, even though I comment here quite often, I have never joined the Cpod forum. Don’t know why…
Pangador has a good point. I am a “newbie” even though I had previous training in Mandarin may years ago using a different romanization. I started at the beginning of the newbie lessons and am working my way up the ladder. I find the lessons to be an excellent supplement to the courses in Mandarin that I am taking at the local university. I don’t post to the dicussion on the old newbie lessons because I think that everyone else has already moved on and I must run to catch up. That brings up another item. Usually here in the West we think that we are the center of the Earth but since ChinesePod comes to us from Zhongguo by the time we read the Blog many people have already read it and posted replys and have gone to bed. It sometimes seems a bit pointless to comment after the wave has already passed and move on. There also may be something to the intimidating theroy. The original newbie group are now sophmores and the new newbies are just freshman. You know how that goes
Mexico Bob
Would a FAQ approach help in this aspect? I’m following a few other Forums, with threads that go on for months and in some cases years, and it’s also very hard for Newbies to jump into the discussions. Many times they ask questions that others have already been through months ago.
ChinesePod has evolved and as a site it has become very daunting for newcomers. It looks very professional and there is a club of people with very strong personalities posting away on the comment sections, blog, forum, etc. I can imagine that in this context it is not so easy for a beginner to start adding his own comments. Furthermore, as we have noticed on the forum in one of the discussions, a very high percentage of the people who post are very computer knowledgeable, someone even used the term ‘geeks’… IMO these people have already a lot of experience on other forums, are used to add comments to blogs, etc. But I think that the biggest potential for newbies is not necessarily in this group. It could be that as CP matures it is easier to find the website, meaning that you reach more and more of your commercial target group, i.e. people who want to learn Mandarin and people searching the internet for additional material to supplement the course they are already taking at university or evening school, etc, and these are perhaps less computer minded than the earlier generation.
When I discovered ChinesePod in Januari, most of the lessons were for newbies and it was still feasible to review all the existing newbie lessons. Now this is no longer the case. A couple of months ago it was clear that all the podcasts had evolved towards being more difficult, newbie was no longer newbie, etc. That was a very dangerous developement IMO because you were alienating potential users. Now CP has refocused and that is a very positive developement. A newbie who visits the site has to be drawn in. So if he tries a newbie lesson his reaction should be ‘Hey, I can do this, let’s have some more’. With the special intro lessons he should be at ease in no time and in the weeks that follow it would be good if the progress is slow but sure. Some have argued that this calls for a learning path that is continuous. I’m not convinced that this is absolutely necessary, newbie lessons that focus on a few key words and phrases can work just as well. Of course this means that there will be repeats. I’m even convinced that it is necessary to repeat lessons from the past. If they come out identical or nearly identical the older version could even be deleted. A newbie will not spend hours navigating this site looking for suitable older lessons. I think that getting a handle on the new shows is already quite a handful. Later on, when he has become a premium member (hopefully for CP) there is plenty of time to discover all the other lessons, get drawn in to the community, posting, etc. So what I’m implying is that unless you are very careful the drop-out rate of new students may well increase and the conversion rate of trial subscribtions into paying subscriptions could well decrease. Of course I don’t see the figures.
Just closing this comment…Reworking older newbie lessons is something that you should really consider. Especially the lessons that were challenging for real newbies.Let me give an example. Consider lessons ‘A30 Face Off’ If a real newbie were to get this lesson as his first or second or even 10th lesson you could scare him so much that he starts running never to be seen again. Don’t get me wrong. It was a wonderfull lesson. I learned a lot. A possible route could be to produce a ‘real’ newbie lesson focussing on paying in a restaurant and a second on elementary level slightly more challenging than the current A30 lesson and I’m sure the situation could even be spiced up for intermediate level too. After such reworking you could either let the old lesson be, move it to a deprecated section or delete it all together.
Sorry for the length of this post
Marc in Belgium (aka marchey)
Mexico Bob and Marchey make really good points – I’ve never posted on a website before and I’m sure I’m making all sorts of errors, but Chinesepod showed me that I could really learn Mandarin, so I’m determined to try. (as a French teacher, at least I’ve got the Krashen-inspired pedagogy thing down). But I am doing the older lessons, after going straight to the new ones just to see what people are saying. But in terms of intimidation – look no further than the latest newbie lesson – a discussion of the proper way to pronounce “thank you” is followed by Art Kho’s request to translate a literary phrase – that would send me running, especially since I haven’t figured out yet how to type Chinese characters. By the way, no one has actually said how one would say “I like tea”…
Wŏ xĭ huan chá (我喜欢茶)
Also: Wo3 yao4 cha2
You see? I still don’t know how to put the tone marks in the post
Mexico Bob
Pandagator makes a good point. Newbies will want to post on the earliest podcasts; but the dates of posts on the podcasts indicate that no-one is listening any more (even if you are!). Its not much of a hurdle; but enough to put someone off making their first post.
Here’s a crazy idea and I hope Jenny doesn’t kill me…What if you have a Dear Jenny section, akin to Dear Abby but for Mandarin questions? I bet every single guy out there would be happy send their Mandarin questions to Jenny. But seriously, Chinesepod can create a Dear Jenny and Connie blog (and few others, to distribute the work load), and scope it around all of the past lessons. That way, newbies or new Chinesepod listeners can post questions on past lessons if they still have questions after listening to them and reading the discussion forums.
I find all of the different levels to be very helpful. I can’t speak Mandarin fluently, although my 12 day trip to China last May improved my Mandarin because I was immersed in this language. I grew up speaking 闽南话 in the Philippines. I still speak this dialect with my parents and my siblings here in the States. In addition, I read Chinese characters much better than I speak it. So listening to Chinesepod everyday has turned out to be a wonderful habit. Obviously some newbie lessons are too easy for me, but I listen to them regardless. The next thing Chinesepod has to do is find listeners outside of China who are good administrators and get them to form clubs so that the listeners can practice Chinese. Perhaps Chinesepod could get the Confucius Institutes all throughout the U.S. to help create Chinesepod clubs.
thanks Pandagator and Mexico Bob…
Ken,
Here’s my theory:
Maybe you and Jenny have perfected the Newbie lessons to the point where only one listen is sufficient to progress to the next level. (The most likely reason).
Therefore, the lack of Newbie posts means that you are doing your job and perhaps should consider increasing the difficulty level of the Newbie podcasts, a little.
Or, Newbies may be so pre-occupied with learning the language that they may not have time to post.
Or, Male Newbie laowai are intimidated by Chinese and fear “looking stupid” if they ask questions in a post. (The male reluctance to ask for help).
So many possible explanations, so little time.
Also, to add to Paul’s comment, it’s possible that a ‘new Newbie’ reviewing the comments already posted (when the podcast first came out) finds all her/his questions answered. After all, the Newbie lessons are not all that complex so there’s a limited number of questions to ask/comments to make. I tend to scoot through a bunch of Newbie lessons and then stall for a while due to other commitments, then review quickly and scoot some more. I only look at the comments if I’m finding myself really stuck, which hasn’t happened much because the lessons are so carefully explained. Another point Paul made, that Newbies are intimidated (how can I comment? I don’t know anything) is also worth considering. We new Newbies are a humble lot…
Final Newbie comment: THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU!!!
How different are newbies, really?
I think it’s more than a different level. The learning that happens there is quite different. Each lesson we try to improve and expand our Chinese knowledge and skills, no matter what level we’re on. Except newbie. In the beginning, absolutely everything is new, always, and for Chinese and podcast learning, that state lasts several weeks. Instead of “expand improve expand improve”, it’s “absorb absorb absorb absorb”. The adrenaline rush of that state can become addictive, or the rapid flow of new material can overwhelm, or both, but it’s a highly charged time for all, and unlike anything that follows. A lot of very different teaching and learning needs are going to flow from that difference, if you think about it.
For most of the pre-Elementary time, students are in a period of transition from most stuff being earth-shatteringly new, to that place where the brain has plenty of well worn hooks to hang some of the new information on and new material has fewer huge surprises. By Elementary, the learning pattern has settled in and the pattern changes are slower until an advanced level where you can shift gears again, more emphasis on reinforcement and improvement and less on unfamiliar newnesses.
When are newbies not newbies?
When they’re total beginners. When they’ve never heard a word of Mandarin before, during the first two or three months of study. Around that time, a massive change occurs, and the student (some? all?) takes a huge leap into a higher level of study. If the shift from Elementary to Intermediate is gradual and huge because of how the material is presented, this 3-month shift is massive because it involves a qualitatively and quantitatively new way of learning, a different-feeling relationship with the language, a new way of perceiving the dialogues, and the use of completely different neural pathways to process the material, but it happens with a “klunk” overnight, is automatic involuntary and internal, and the lesson materials and presentation are no different afterwards. We’re still talking about someone with a vocabulary well below, say, 50 words, who will be working at newbie level at least another six months.
I cannot justify that claim, but from observation I believe it to be so. I’ve seen it happen in other subjects too, often earlier than for Chinese. (For flute and clarinet players, for example, it commonly occurs around the time that they learn their fifth note.) The recent introduction of a special seven-lesson starters course is a big move towards recognising the different experience of the new total Mandarin novice. If I am right about this stuff (which I might not be!), then there might be other ways that can be devised to capture these people and ensure their needs and desires are satisfied until they reach that point, still here at somewhere one to three months down the track, where that first tiny Chinese seed bursts open in their brains and the thing they see with those new eyes is ChinesePod.
The art of giving
Most students hope to get answers to their questions. Beginners want answers too, but more important than answers, they want their questions to be scoped. If every question were answered properly, there would simply be too much to learn. Newbies can’t tell whether their question is an excellent newbie question (hey, there’s ni3-men and ta1-men, so can you have ren2-men?) or a question which should wait until a later stage (what’s this le word about, really?), and if someone doesn’t make that distinction when questions are asked, not only will the students will be overwhelmed with supplementary learning that is assumed to be recommended, but they would also be spending large proportions of study time working outside of the intended pedagogical plan, weakening it, without knowing they are doing so. As one moves up the levels, more questions become relevant, and also students are somewhat aware of what’s within scope and what’s for later.
Because newbies know so little, and rely on others to learn more, they are easily typecast as solely askers of questions, either someone’s burden or someone’s ego booster. Some enjoy that narrow role, and others can’t stand it for a second. When moving into a community, to have conversations and relationships with others, if the newbie is assumed to only ever ask questions, that does not make their friendship equally attractive. Friendships they do find can work well at first, then evaporate once the grateful-dependent roleplay is dropped. If the motivating reason for the newbie moving into the community is a wish to contribute, which is often the case, that chosen role needs to be accepted by others, which I think we do here, and they would identify with the group more easily the more opportunities there are to offer the skills they already have (Chinese or other skills).
If any or all of the above is total crap, please do me a favour and enlighten me!
And maybe newbies don’t post in the Comments when they see no visible sign of any teacher having been there, and they see questions either sitting unanswered or answered by what appears to be another student with no official confirmation of that answer’s correctness or its content’s appropriateness for study by people learning at that stage. I suspect newbies might anticipate seeing teachers monitoring and controlling the communication in the Comments area, and interpret their absence as unavailability, and therefore see posting that-lesson-related questions as futile. They might assume it is learner centred lesson assistance rather than learner provided chat.
On the blog, all you have to do is post “haha, me too” and you’ve got a fair chance of being responded to by someone famous.