We touched on the question of different languages this week. I’d be interested to know more about your attitudes/experience in this regard. Is a ChinesePod learner more likely to have studied other languages in the past? If so, did you achieve any degree of fluency (written or spoken) in previous efforts?
A certain number of us may have grown up in places where more than one language was spoken. I’d like to hear how this has shaped your attitudes towards language learning.
Most of us, however, probably grew up in a monolingual environment. Achieving any knowledge of a second/third language required formal study – the hard way, as opposed to the natural way (exposure). And, no doubt, many of us may have passed through a program of formal study (in school) to emerge with little to show for it. What were your experiences? How has this affected your Mandarin studies?
Once again, anecdotes, analysis, opinions, all are welcome.
Ken Carroll
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Hey, and how about Yoedeling , Pig Latin, Vulcan (Star Trek), Cockney, Backslang, and Ubbi Dubbi ? I suppose they are all fair game in the survey, eh? I am in awe at being in the company of so many linguistic geniuses
Till, Did you by any chance study at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland from 1989-1990?
Funny how most people here seem to have done Russian at some point of time…
I grew up speaking only English, though my mother speaks Hungarian. She was born and raised in a Hungarian immigrant farmer community, and so I myself heard the language being spoken quite often, though I never learned it then. I became obsessed with languages while still in grade school, when the priest in our school began teaching us Spanish phrases in hope of sparking interest in vocations in South America. So, I took 3 years of Spanish in High School, but all the time looking for books that taught other languages as well. With much difficulty I got a hold of a couple Hungarian books (this was back in the 50′s) and began a process of learning THAT language that has gone on till today.
I majored in Russian and minored in German, and took two years of Polish and one year of Mandarin besides. This was in the mid 60′s, and we were taught the Gwoyeu Romatzyh system of latinization which incorporates the tones in the spelling. It took us the good part of the first semester to learn it, but I am still very fond of that system.
I also daubed in a few others, like, Swedish, Arabic, Syrian, Georgian (the absolutely MOST DIFFICULT one I’ve come across yet!!!), Latvian, but never learned enough of them to get anywhere.
Anyway, one thing I found rather interesting was that in learning Hungarian, though I did not have any recordings of native speakers, and just did not have the occasion, after I began college, to be around the ones at home, I found that in the back of my mind I had a strong recollection of the pronunciation of some of the sounds that are somewhat different than those in IndoEuropean languages. I was certain I was getting it right and when I actually began listening to internet recordings of news items, I became even more certain. I could not go by my mother, whose pronunciation was somewhat Americanized, so, I had to depend on my own resources.
So to sum this all up, I speak the following in order of fluency: English, Russian, Greek (modern, and I know Koine Greek rather well also), German, Hungarian, Chinese. I have found that learning a language’s grammar and basic structure is usually easy until a certain point, when afterwards it is all about learning vocabulary. And the best way to expand vocabulary, or language skills in general, is either to be exposed to the language itself, among native speakers, or else translating texts, which forces one to actively learn all aspects of the language. That is how I learned Koine Greek. And yes, for each new language one studies, the next one is always a little easier, especially if you start out with one that is highly inflected like Latin or Russian.
All of this goes back to my long-standing complaint about the need for more professional discussions and precise definitions of “speaking” a language. It is a question I loathe when people ask me, because usually they don’t know exactly what they mean by the question, just vaguely conversational ability maybe but sometimes not even that, and you don’t know what it means either if you’ve had any experience in learning languages. To the uninitiated, the assumption is that you can study for a year, and you know everything there is to know about the language and can translate “War and Peace” or hold high-level diplomatic talks, etc. In countries where monolingualism is common, there is an unreality to the concept of fluency and “speaking” ability that desperately needs to be corrected. Languages are incredible beasts with lots of nooks and crannies to be mastered if one is courageous (and has enough time or resources) enough to try, but again my typical answer to the dreaded question just annoys people. My definition of fluency is I can pick up any written material in that language on any subject, plus I can converse in the language on any topic of any depth, which means I have to answer with long explanations about how my professional interest is in the written language primarily, not the oral (though it’s great to get that too), and what subjects I might actually be able to function discussing or reading. Most people don’t want to hear that. They want yes or no to be the answer to the fluency question, and I think according to my criteria, most people could not claim fluency as much as they do.
As to the question about maintaining language ability from the past or how many languages, I have noticed with myself that I have high reading retention in any language I study, that I don’t seem to forget basic grammar structure and can get by in any language I have studied to some degree years after exposure, but some of that may be due to having a good memory. Recall for conversation purposes is always the hardest to maintain, but even the reading level is a more remote ability than my current ability to read Chinese. It takes far more effort than Chinese. I have had some success with study of other languages, but I have been mostly hindered by other agendas of professors or circumstances that have limited the functionality of what I have learned. I was never trained how to take the formal language instruction that I have had and expand on it so I can use it in more practical situations.
Finally, my experience with actually speaking a language is similar to some of the others expressed here. I had a childhood love for mimickry and a love for singing that has helped in learning languages. My best spoken language was Japanese, and when I went on a trip there a few years back, because I had mastered the phrase book a little too well, the person I questioned about directions took my ability to be far more than it was, and I ended up taking a 45 minute, very scary hiking trip I had no idea was ahead. Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing….
Michele, I think you are right on…thank you!
I also agree with Michelle on the aspect of what is “speaking” a language. Realistically I am still monolingual. My chinese vocabulary is extremely limited (lets face it on good days I am a beginner). As for my language background I grew up in the US, in a very monolingual state. My first interest was German which I only pursued through a phrase book and never formally. I know a few phrases, and stuff that is said over here that has stuck through the generations, but orally, I don’t understand the language. I took Latin in high school which I really loved and was able to retain some of, but there isn’t alot of demand for speaking latin here. I know bits of French and Spanish, both from the school system (9 weeks required in each language), and what I picked up from exchange students. I began to fall in love with Asia in college. I made many Asian friends and even looked into working there a couple times. My friends have been teaching me Chinese on and off for the last several years. I would love to say I can speak at least two languages with these bits and peices I have, but unless it has a heavy english backbone or comonality even my Chinglish isn’t that good. Thank you Chinesepod for all the help, now if I can just keep from getting so busy that I ignore you!
Language learning had always seemed a snowball effect — learn one language and the next will be easier, and the third one easier still — until I started learning Mandarin. Mandarin is so much unlike any other language I’ve ever studied that hardly any of the previous work seems of any use here.
Perhaps this can teach me how monoglots feel when they learn their first foreign language.
furyou gaijin – congrats on being i would have thought the only simultaneous translator in 3 languages in the world, plus a working knowledge of at least 10 others! (most interpreters work in only one language, unless very very closely related – and translate in only one ‘direction’, into the mother tongue)
beijing
Yes, one does get the feeling that this blog has turned into an egotrip for some!
I also understand that it is very rare to have so many languages but there is evidence of some extraordinary abilities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_noted_polyglots
I can say “beer, please” in several languages.
Beijing,
Interpreters work in as many languages as they can or care to pass the test in. Translating into the mother tongue isn’t necessarily the easiest thing to do – many factors are at work here and it is rather beyond the scope of this discussion. Simultaneous interpreting is a separate craft altogether and has more to do with practice than with profound knowlegde of any language. One of our professors, with his decades of experience of being an interpreter to Presidents and Prime Ministers, used to be fond of saying many years ago that simultaneous interpreters should have very limited vocabulary in their target language – it prevents them from losing precious seconds choosing between various options.
Anyway, it would be interesting to hear about your own experience in this field… (^_-);
Hehe, I see the problem, but it has to do with the way we use our own language. Someone calls a spade a spade, and it reads as a lie. Look:
Are you singing?
No, I’m speaking Chinese!
How do you get rid of pushy sales people?
Easy, I speak Chinese.
Did you have trouble finding that rare book in the shop?
No, I spoke Chinese and she was happy to help me.
What do you do when you meet with friends after work?
We sit in the cafe and speak Chinese.
Do you speak Chinese?
No, I don’t speak Chinese, only English.
The person asking “Do you speak Chinese?” should be aware that the question is ambiguous, and either change it or expect an uninterpretable answer.
Hehe,
Well said! Aunty Sue
When I was in school, my dad bought me a Linguaphone set to learn French. After a couple of years of French in school, this was the first time I’d actually heard native speakers speaking the language. I loved it and my grades improved dramatically. We’re talking about the late 70s here, so the thing actually had vinyl records, not even cassettes! Later I swappped it for a Spanish set, but I never got around to using that. I remember travelling across Dublin to meet the guys who had the Spanish set. Vinyl? Travelling across the city to pick up some audio? Gosh how times have changed.
Ken Carroll
Like some others here, I’m fluent in about 10 languages; english, french, german, spanish, portuguese, italian, tagalog, arabic, greek and swahili. I can say “hello” and “how are you”. It didn’t take much hard work to reach proficiency. I hope to add Mandarin to my list some day.
Mmm let me see: fluent in French (mother tongue), English and I try to be in Chinese. Also studied german for 5 years, latin for 3 years and 1 year of spanish and japanese but don’t ask me to speak!
Music is a great way to learn a language. I guess it was really easy to learn English because I was always listening to English or American bands. I try to do the same with Chinese music but unfortunalety, it is not really the music I like to listen to. Now, I know, “lao shu ai da mi” and “you duo shao ai”. Karaoke is also a good way to learn, but unfortunately, I still have problems with traditional hanzi.
Well I guess I’ll tell my language history as well…
My mother tongue is Finnish. At the age of 9 I started to learn English. These two I consider to be my strongest ones.
When I was 13 I started to study Swedish (that is compulsory here in Finland) but since then I have tried my best to forget about it
At the same time I started Latin and a year later Russian. I didn’t stay too long with them, because I didn’t like them so much. (Latin 3 years, Russian 2 years)
After I graduated from highschool, I took one more course of Russian just to brush up, but didn’t continue further than a basic course.
And two years ago I got into the University of Helsinki and started to study Chinese. I have also taken courses in Classical Tibetan, modern Tibetan, Sanskrit and German. I am planning to continue with Chinese and German.
I think I am fluent only in Finnish and English… I can have a simple conversation in Swedish, Chinese and German… so I’m not much of a polyglot
All the other languages I have mostly forgotten by now… I think it really shows that you need to use a language in order to remember it.
开心
Hello
I am new to the forum – my first week free trial expired and I decided it was worth joining cninesepod…
wo hen gaoxing ren shi nimen!
I speak Portuguese (I am Brazilian), English, and French fluently. Learned English in school, but of course only became fluent after moving to this country. Lived for a couple of years in Paris, an easy language to learn if your native one is Portuguese
I work in a lab with lots of Chinese graduate students and always wanted to learn a “challenging” language. Mandarin seemed like a very good choice for me.
I find it beautiful but more challenging than expected – the tones are not easy to master. I am studying by myself, using all kinds of sources, and getting a lot of help and encouragement from my Chinese students.
Chinesepod is wonderful, I am very happy I found this place!
SallyBR,
Great to have you here. Feel free to pile in an join the conversation.
Ken Carroll
Hello,
I am English and I did learn some German at secondary school, which I never really had the chance to speak – just grammar and more grammar…
When I was 35 I decided to take up French and I visited France a year later. Since that time, I’ve continued with my French and in 2001 I actually had the chance to visit Germany. I restarted my German and I’ve now achieved a good level of fluency in French and a reasonably good level of fluency in German.
After a business trip to China in October this year, I decided to learn some Mandarin. A business colleague in Shenzhen recormmended Chinesepod – so on my return I started to download some files and I’m now a subscriber.
I don’t yet know how my Chinese will develop. I’m 50 now and have a busy job so time is scarce. However I enjoy the style of teaching here and I’m very open minded.
So, even though I’ve been learning languages before -which did have an influence on me taking up Chinese, the main reason has come from business contacts and having the chance to visit Taiwan, Hong Kong and China (Shenzhen) rather than just a natural progression from the other languages.
Kind regards
Alan
Alan,
These little vignettes are really helpful for us in understanding the needs of our community. Feel free to post more on your progress and let us know what we can do to facilitate it.
Ken Carroll
English, Mandarin, and starting to learn Taiwanese. I learned ancient Egyptian a while ago, on my own and in university, but, obviously have not used it much, other than reading ancient items in museums and such, so I’m kind of rusty at it.
I grew up in a monolingual environment. But I used to listen to a weekly Chinese music program on the radio, and remember being fascinated by the strange sounds.
I became a self-learner early. My first grade teacher took one look at me and immediately placed me in the slow learners group. So, since I had a burning desire to learn to read, I decided to teach myself. I asked people what signs meant, and pinched books from the school library and asked people what the words meant. By the time I was in second grade, I was reading teen fantasy novels.
I also taught myself to play music, both reading and improvising, and began playing for $$ in my early teens.
I took a couple of French courses in high-school. The fact that my teachers obviously couldn’t speak the language themselves confirmed my low opinion of the education establishment. I wanted to learn, but couldn’t see how studying the material in the text-book would help me to actually speak the language.
In my late twenties, in spite of my abysmal high school record, I managed to enroll in a local college as an adult learner. I was lucky in that the (beginners) French course I took used a text with extensive recorded material, including a lot of reading passages with phonetic transcriptions. Also, my teacher was a specialist in French phonology. To me, copying these recordings was little different than copying a jazz solo off a record. I knew exactly how to go about it, and I knew I would be good at it. My teacher helped me a bit with the tongue positions etc. and she encouraged me to go on.
Soon after, while continuing my French studies, I enrolled in a special experimental Spanish program. It was a kind of military style course. We were required to do vast amounts of memorizing dialogues and structural drill, but no grammar instruction, and no written work. I was the only person in the course with no background in Spanish, but I worked at it twenty hours a week and got the top mark in the course for both semesters. I got permission to skip classes and just use the recordings, since I found the classes to be a waste of time. When I finished the two semesters, I searched around for every Spanish recording I could find, going so far as to visit other institutions, and bribe the language lab workers to make me recordings.
I studied French using a traditional approach, but with lots of language lab enhancement. I was lucky to be in an enlightened program, where all classes were taught in French, and with lots of language lab work. I studied grammar in French, did dictees, read books, and wrote essays. I also did lots of extra work on my own, constantly listening to French radio, and progressing from reading comic books, to children’s books to detective novels, to literature. With Spanish, I kept on using an almost exclusively oral approach.
I estimate that I put 75% of my university time into French and 25% into Spanish. Yet, after several years of study, my fluency in Spanish was almost as good as my fluency in French. I concluded that the oral/aural approach is the quickest and most efficient for spoken fluency. Later on, I started on a program of reading Spanish and got so I could read novels for enjoyment without a dictionary.
Right from the start, I saw language study as a variant of music study. I tried to take methods that I knew worked in learning music, and apply them to language study. For instance, musicians agree that the way to learn a new piece is to first study and perfect it at a slow tempo. Only when you can play it absolutely perfect at a slow tempo do you gradually speed it up. Yet, so many of the audio language materials I have come across move far to quickly to native speed dialogues. Since my goal was always to speak well, and not just to communicate, I also rejected the idea that “mistakes don’t matter” or even worse “mistakes are good”. While I agree that mistakes are inevitable in language learning, I have tried to adopt learning strategies that minimize mistakes. For me this means spending most of the early and intermediate stages of language learning copying and imitating, and postponing free conversation. In Spanish, I did spent over a thousand hours in oral work before attempting free conversation. I was amazed myself at how fluent I had become, and my interlocutor refused to believe that she was the first person I had spoken Spanish with.
A few years ago, I acquired some Italian recordings and started playing them in my car. Within a few months of half-hearted study, I was understanding most of the news and getting the gist of overheard conversations. I thought maybe that my efforts in French and Spanish had strengthened my Language Acquisition Device and that maybe I should tackle something more interesting—- like Mandarin.
It was far more difficult than I thought it would be, but oh-so-interesting. I quickly acquired every audio-lingual Mandarin program I could find, including some that aren’t available at Amazon.com. Many were really badly done, most have to steep a learning curve, but I was able to cobble together a program of studies from them. When I discovered Chinesepod, I was at the intermediate level. I think it’s a great concept, and I hope that Ken makes oodles of $$ from it.
Some other comments:
I have known a number of ordinary people who worked in five or more languages. Usually though, most were related languages. I think that a Portuguese speaker would find it as easy to learn all the Romance languages as it would be for him to learn Mandarin.
How long it takes to learn a foreign language is a function of how efficient your study methods are and how many hours you put into it, not how many years you have been studying it. My guess is that 1000 hours of efficient study will bring a certain basic fluency. (Say three hours a day for a year) They say that to become a true expert in any field requires 10,000 hours of study.
I have met a very few people in my life who had a freakish ability to learn languages. One could rapidly interpret from one adult-learned- language to another. Another spoke about 10 or so unrelated languages and had interpreted in several. He was an inspiration to me to start Mandarin. He started studying it in his sixties, and was soon able to converse in it. I tested him by reading him a half page poem in English. He repeated it back after a single hearing.
I found that my initial progress in Mandarin was very slow. I didn’t find it physically difficult to pronounce though. The sound system isn’t as complicated as the French one, and the tongue doesn’t have to move as rapidly as in Spanish. Knowing French vowel sounds helped with Mandarin vowels. I never had any trouble imitating the tones, especially since I normally only pronounce words immediately after a native speaker recording . Attaching a meaning to the tones was a little more difficult. I’m finding progress to be much faster now though. Learning vocabulary is by far the hardest part for me
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