There have been a number of stories in the local Chinese-language press about problems at the Kaien language schools here in Shanghai. It appears to be a very unfortunate situation for everyone involved – students, teachers, partners and management.
To set the record straight, Kaien and Praxis Language are two completely separate entities. The 50+ staff here at ChinesePod/Praxis Language have been unaffected by these external events. In fact, we are very busy working on new lessons, new tools and new services to help our students continue to learn Chinese.
Please let me know if there are any other questions about this.
Thanks,
Hank Horkoff, Praxis Language CEO
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{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }
Could you help clarify what Ken Carrolls current roll at Praxis/Chinesepod?
ChinesePod may not be directly affected, but Ken Carroll is widely associated with the ChinesePod brand in the minds of its international customer base. Rumors of unscrupulous behavior — even if they are just rumors — will need to be addressed and quelled if ChinesePod is to retain it’s brand integrity.
Signing up for multi-month language tutoring subscriptions with a company half-way around the world requires a lot of trust on the part of the customer. That trust can easily be lost at the slightest hint of unethical behavior, especially in the current economic environment.
So when you say “staff here at ChinesePod/Praxis Language have been unaffected by these external events, ” are you saying that the claim in this Shanghaiist post that Praxis managers Ken Carroll and Steve Williams have fled China because of the Kaien mess are untrue, or that Praxis is unaffected by their departures?
What worries me (and I think worries a lot of ChinesePod subscribers) is that two or three of the management of an education service that takes student’s money up front (ChinesePod) have been implicated in a case where an education service has suddenly closed down and the owners have disappeared with their students’ money (Kaien). Could you please lay out what rights ChinesePod users have to get their subscription money back if in the future Praxis runs into financial difficulties?
Guys,
Thanks for the questions and I can understand the concern. I have asked everyone here at Praxis to take an open position as we address these questions.
@William
Ken has been a prominent presence in the community and a strong influence on our pedagogical approach, but for most of the past four years he has not had a full time position within the company. He has down a great job in training our academic publishing team here (John, Jenny, Catherine, et al) and I am very proud in the quality of our lessons. Ken is formally a part-time consultant with the company right now helping us with academics and marketing.
@Andrew Layton, @Jack
I agree trust is very important. That is why, we at Praxis have always tried to be very open and accessible to our students both online and here in Shanghai. In fact, we have had hundreds of students come by personally visit and check out our operations here. From day one we have believed in nurturing a community of students who love studying Chinese. I hope their voices can re-assure people as well. We also have a Refund Policy for those students who are not satisfied with our service.
We have a very strong management team and staff here at Praxis and are continuing to work on delivering more and more value for our students. We have had a strong year in 2009 and have even bigger plans for 2010.
Dear Hank,
I would like to point out that your answer (“Refund Policy”) does not answer Jack’s question at all.
It speaks for you that you adress the issue openly here in the blog, however, also for me, your blog entry opens too many questions and leaves them unanswered as to say it would comfort and rebuild trust. (In fact, it just started the worries for me)
Hank,
I appreciate the response, but (as Matthias pointed out), you didn’t answer my question about how my subscription money is protected, nor did you answer my first question. I’ll restate them:
And:
I understand wanting to maintain some sort of corporate stance/line on these issues, but since you opened yourself up to questions on this, I’d appreciate some answers.
@Jack,
Sorry for being vague. For your first question, the answer is “Praxis is unaffected by their departures”. We have a very capable management team in place. You are welcome to stop by the office here anytime you are in Shanghai to see for yourself.
On the second question, frankly it is a scenario that we have never considered. As with other subscription-based websites I believe that would be governed by our Terms & Conditions: http://chinesepod.com/terms. That said, looking at that document now there is no explicit treatment of this issue. I understand the current sensitivity and we would be open to making amendments to this document if we could find “best practices” used by other sites.
I would like to point out though, that ChinesePod is a very different business. We don’t have anywhere near the costs that a traditional school has. Moreover, ChinesePod has been consistently making new investments in new lessons and new tools to continue to push the service forward. We have always had big ambitions.
@Matthias,
Apologies for creating worries for you. My goal here was just to open a conversation to provide answers to questions that people might have.
Hank,
Thank you very much for your quick response. I think your openness with all of this says a lot about the company and its prospects, and I’ll consider my fears (more or less) allayed.
I do think, though, having some sort of explicit policy on what would happen to people’s subscription money if the company went out of business would be a good thing, even if it basically amounted to “tough luck.” At least people would know up front what risk (however small it might be) they are taking.
I will have the team here survey some other subscription-based websites and see if we can find a policy to emulate. If there are any suggestions please let me know.
I think this is pretty important moment for Praxis and Chinese Pod. I’m including a link to what might be a helpful guide in managing public relations challenges.
http://www.aerobiologicalengineering.com/wxk116/TylenolMurders/crisis.html
Hi Hank,
I found it somewhat disturbing that you portrey Ken like just another hired part time senior teacher / trainer.
But wasn’t Ken the voice, the face, and, yes, the head of Chinesepod for so many years? One of the three founders of the enterprise? Didn’t he hold a senior management position? I also got the impression, that on top of all this he was also at least in parts investor and owner.
In fact, the first two years of CPod’s existence the whole service was equal to “Ken Caroll’s Chinese learning podcast & blog – starring Jenny Zhu”. And BTW, there were some prominent links to the KaiEn-schools, which originally made me thought that CPod is the online subsidiary of KaiEn (worries about financial implications are therefore in my eyes more than legitimate).
To sum it up: the post above reads like “Well, my parents played some role in my life which I am thankful for, but don’t worry – it was just a minor one. “
@Henning,
That was by no means my intent. My response to @William was simply my best description of Ken’s past and present activities with Praxis.
To be clear, Praxis Language is not subsidiary of Kaien. They are two completely separate entities.
i don’t know what all this will mean for ken. i hope he gets it all sorted. but what will all this imply for cpod? and particularly myself as a paying user? perhaps it may result in my commenting rights being re-instated
“To be clear, Praxis Language is not subsidiary of Kaien. They are two completely separate entities.”
That’s not what KaiEn said. They said you guys are really really close friends. Partners even.
http://www.kaiencorporate.com
Mr. Horkoff is doing what any CEO would do in this situation, and that is damage control. Good for him.
Mr. Carroll and Mr. Williams are Board members of Kaien, and also Board members of Praxis. Since there appears to be corporate impropriety at Kaien, that brings a taint to the Praxis owners and investors. In issues of corporate governance, appearance is every bit as important as underlying fact, so it doesn’t surprise me in the least that Mr. Horkoff and Ms. Zhu would proactively take positions that distance themselves from the taint.
Mr. Williams is the COO of Praxis. I would be more concerned with his departure than Mr. Carroll’s. Both gentlemen were absolutely key in the success of Chinese Pod; Mr. Carroll in the front of the house, and Mr. Williams in the back. I would be quite cautious in pre-paying for a subscription for the next few months, as whether Mr. Horkoff wishes to admit it or not, these developments are serious body blows to Praxis. My sense is that Praxis and Chinese Pod will be just fine, once the dust clears
I hope Ken is alright, in the last month he was more and more away and now this Bomb goes off…I just can´t picture him as a bad guy!
I hope the teachers come out of this horror situation as unharmed as possible.
Having said this I just wanna say, that if Chinesepod is safe it´s a hughe relief for me and so far Chinesepod never gave me reason to mistrust them! ^_^
I don’t think Ken’s day to day roll is really an important issue. As Henning said I was under the impression that Ken was at least some sort of majority share holder in Praxis.
My question is if Ken (and the others mentioned in the shanghiist artical) are the stake holders in both KaiEn and Praxis then does their exposure to the KaiEn debacle pose any threat to Praxis through creditors looking to recover losses?
Ken certainly is the face of CPod. Only Jenny is more visible but Ken has always appeared to be the inspiration and leader of the group. Any attempt to diminish that perception rings hollow.
That said, CPod would be a deal at half the price. I’m buying a product, and it’s well worth the money I spend. Thank you for the good work you do and best of luck pulling through all of this in one piece…both Praxis and Ken.
Freudian slip: CPod would be a deal at twice the price : )
It is very difficult to comment on legal or financial issues in a public forum like this, but I will try my best.
@Amigito,
Praxis Language and Kaien are completely separate companies and have never signed a partnership agreement. The only thing we share is some common investors.
@Chaz,
All Kaien-related investors in Praxis Language, combined, only have a minority stake. Their involvement, from a financial and board perspective, is much more limited than some comments have implied. Kaien is solely responsible for their own decisions and obligations. I have no information at all about any of that.
I also understand the sensitivity around this issue, but would like to remind everyone that ChinesePod and Praxis Language have done absolutely nothing improper here.
Just to add my two cents.. I think Praxis and the “Pod” brand are fantastic. I’ve always gotten the best service, a great product and a superior user experience. I’m new to China (Suzhou) and Chinese Pod was the first place I looked for online Chinese help and the whole operation from the website, podcasts and the “business” side, seems well run, a good value for the consumer (and evidently profitable for the company.) Regardless of any allegations about Mr. Carroll — he is not Chinese Pod, though he seems to have had a significant influence.. however, that doesn’t mean anything in regards to Praxis. First of all, we don’t even have the whole story about KaiEn. Before rushing to judge Mr. Carroll, we ought to wait for the story to come out. Mr. Carroll was one of three executives at KaiEn and serves in a minor role currently at Praxis — basing one’s opinions of CPod based on the actions of one formerly influential associate and current consultant is irresponsible. As far as remedies are concerned — if CPod were to shut down (unlikely) then pre-paid subscribers would be able to recover their money through the credit card companies. I don’t care to go into that process here, but unless you’re paying cash, you’re protected in the event of a non-delivered service.
As far as I’m concerned — I’m very happy with Chinese Pod and would be proud to be a part of such an organization.
Hank, as I’m sure you’re aware, two entities generally implies that each entity carries its own debts/assets. Again, to state the obvious, this prevents one entity’s success or lack thereof from affecting the other. This leads my two questions:
1. Has ChinesePod (i.e. the business entity) guaranteed any of Kaien’s debts, leases, or other financial obligations?
2. Does ChinesePod have/share any cross-holdings in/with Kaien or an entity in which Kaien has a financial interest in or obligation to?
3. Do ChinesePod and Kaien have any direct intercompany debts/obligations to each other or indirect debts/obligations via a parent company (e.g. Praxis)?
4. My questions are predicated upon my understanding of U.S. law. To the best of your knowledge, are there significant differences in the Chinese legal system (or lack thereof) that invalidate my assumptions?
Hopefully these questions thread the line between legitimate questions versus private information such a CPod’s financial statements.
@hank,
first, thanks for accepting and addressing my worries.
About the policy: the least such a policy should contain is to keep the content upright for a certain period of time {and/to} give everybody who paid the chance of downloading.
@Tvan,
I can answer a clear “No” to all your questions.
@Matthias
Thanks for the idea. We will look at ways to work that into a revised Terms & Conditions.
@Hank
Will Steve Williams or Ken Carroll be working with Praxis in the future?
I recognize that KaiEn and Chinesepod are separate, distinct entities and that’s the point of this clarification, and fine by me. I don’t really care about that.
I just want to echo what Henning and a1pi2 said above. I find it surprising, if not ridiculous, to downplay Ken’s role as being merely some part-time consultant at ChinesePod. Is Jenny also just some insignificant, part-time employee?
In an interview published just a few weeks ago with the global, well-respected China Economic Review, Mr. Carroll is refered to as Vice President of Marketing.
Maybe John and Jenny can do a newbie lesson this week on the phrase “throwing someone under the bus”. Seems to be a timely topic.
@Ben,
I can’t speak to the future, but Ken Carroll is currently working with Praxis as a part-time consultant helping with academics and marketing. Steve Williams is formally on leave.
@Andrew Corrigan, @Say it ain’t so
Guys, I think it is obvious that Ken has played a significant role in the history of ChinesePod and Praxis Language, but the reality is he is more of a
“big-picture guy” rather than someone involved in day-to-day operations. We have 50+ people here at Praxis Language (in front of and behind the scenes) who are all working hard to move ChinesePod forward.
Hank is right about Ken’s involvement in ChinesePod. While he was always very good at getting press for the website, he was never involved in the day to day operations. He’s a visionary, not a manager. To say he was thrown under the bus is wrong.
not to quibble but last july a cpod employee posted that jenny and pete worked in the office one day a week while ken and john were there most days. was ken just there to avoid the heat at kai en? if memory serves, besides the founders/investors of cpod being kai en, the initial employees of cpod were culled from kai en as well.
regardless this is a bad situation for all involved. lives are seriously affected. students trying to learn english have apparently lost their money. teachers and staff are suddenly unemployed with lost wages. visas will be affected.
besides the website links on kaien, the only evidence of a visible partnership i’ve seen was the giving of free chinesepod accounts to kaien employees, so presumably even minority shareholders and part-timers can give away hundreds of cpod accounts. although these accounts would be considered a benefit and not salary, presumably some student tuition money would have to be transferred to cpod to pay for these accounts, since these are 2 separate companies.
the only thing i’m wondering is – the founders of cpod tied to kaien have fled the country – for what? to avoid jail? for safety reasons? to find investors and return with a huge bag of money?
ken left the country because he was in physical danger — thugs were out to get him. he doesn’t even sit on the board of kai’en anymore. he was not involved in kai’en operations for months. brian sunk the ship, not ken.
steve left for serious health reasons–his departure from china had nothing to do with kai’en. he also resigned his board position at kai’en months ago.
ken and steve were forced to resign the kai’en board when Praxis took outside funding. the praxis investors gave the two an ultimatum: choose one or the other.
thus, Kris Fedorak’s account is on the mark and very accurate. I do not know Kris, but he gets the story right.
http://krisfedorak.fedcor.net/china/?p=969
Hank, looks like you’re just feeding the fire, albiet unintentionally.
http://shanghaiist.com/2009/12/19/kaien-english-chinesepod-ken-carroll.php
Hank,
In managing this situation, instead of adopting a strategy of distancing yourself from Ken (a front line key person who has helped Cpod grow, one of the founding investors of Cpod and maybe still has an equity interest in Cpod, an upright person who, according to the news and blogs, just got caught in an unfortunate financial situation, Ken, an old friend) perhaps you could speak more about Cpod’s financial strength and the unlikeliness of subscribers being stranded in a sudden closure of the site due to financial or legal issues.
@Paulinurus
As I have been mentioning, Praxis Language is a completely different entity from Kaien and therefore does not have anything to do with Kaien’s financial or legal issues.
ChinesePod has been growing since September 2005 and we plan to continue to grow well into the future – we all need to learn more Chinese. Praxis Language closed its Series A round of funding in 2008 to help support a lot of these future plans. We also have a number of subscription lengths, from 1 month to 24 months, to suit the different needs of our students. We are committed to following best practices for subscription-based websites and will be doing a review of our Terms & Conditions in the New Year to make sure we are doing everything we can.
Happy holidays!
Well from those of us who have been enjoying chinesepod over the years , the presentations the laughs and stories from Jenny and all , we’ll keep up our subs , regardless , i for one would be lost without my diet of chinesepod .
I’ve purposely stayed away from commenting on this whole affair for a few weeks, basically to let the dust settle and to let the conspiracy theories sort of burn themselves out. There still seems to be a whole lot of misinformation out there, so I thought I’d add my two cents.
Several years ago, I formed a business venture, together with Ken, Steve, and Brian, called On Demand Training, or ODT for short. Like many, if not most, startups, what we eventually became was almost entirely different than what we initially envisioned. We started out with a vision to offer high-quality business english training to large corporate clients, and our raw ingredients consisted of founder seed funding by the partners, certain IP assets including rights to the name English Pod, and the corporate training division of Kai En. Our Board of Directors consisted of myself, Steve, Brian, and Ken. Steve, Brian, and Ken all kept their full-time positions in CPod/Praxis and/or Kai En. Very quickly we identified a fantastic opportunity to help Nokia China launch a highly innovative and ground-breaking mobile learning application called MobilEdu, so we made a decision to focus entirely on mobile learning. At that time we sold the corporate training business back to Kai En. For a number of reasons that don’t need to be aired in a public forum, the Board made a decision to wind the venture down. As painful as that decision was, it was the right decision, and in actual fact, over 95% of startups fail or are wound down before their 3rd birthday. During the time that ODT was a live business entity, CPod became part of Praxis, and Hank became the Praxis CEO. As part of our winding down, Praxis, led by Hank, purchased certain assets of ODT that they felt would be a great fit for Praxis – like the rights to the name English Pod, and the Nokia relationship. The price offered by Praxis was both fair and generous, and was a direct result of the simple fact that Hank is a damn good businessman.
I am saying all this to clarify all the misinformation out there. When Hank says there is no linkage between Kai En and Praxis, it’s because there is no linkage between Kai En and Praxis. Ken and Steve were an integral part of the success of Chinese Pod, and were an integral part of the early success of ODT. Although my personal business dealings with both of these guys ended in a failed business and a level of acrimony 2 or 3 notches worse than shouting (at least !), that is the nature of startup businesses, and neither one of them have an evil or criminal bone in their bodies. To feel that there is some sort of corollary damage to Praxis due to the Kai En affair is utter nonsense. Founders of startups, and in particular, startups that receive venture funding, often leave. In fact,, that happens the majority of the time. The skills and expertise needed to launch a venture are very often quite different than the skills and expertise needed to take a venture to the next level of growth and expansion. While I have not talked with Ken, I have talked with Steve, and can say with 100% conviction that neither of them left China because of improprieties at Praxis. There is no smoke here, and there is no fire.
as a former kai en employee, i can specifically remember teachers being invited to take part in a meeting about something that would bring kai en into the forefront of what was supposed to be the future of teaching.
there, steve and ken waxed poetic on the wonders of the internet, and how podcasts were going to change everything. they told the teachers that if they had good ideas and skills that could be utilised, that they could get on board and become part of this project.
last I had heard, before i left kai en, was that chinesepod was steve and ken’s baby. even after talks with ken (as he’d visit the psq branch on occasion, and we always had a good chat when we saw each other)
I don’t know what happened from there, but this is what i know, and have been told as a result of conversations with ken, steve and brian.
i don’t know what happened
QUOTE: I also understand the sensitivity around this issue, but would like to remind everyone that ChinesePod and Praxis Language have done absolutely nothing improper here.
2 out of the 3 founders of CP, including current COO have fled China under very suspicious circumstances and CP has done nothing improper? pull the other one.
If it looks fishy, tastes fishy and smells fishy, it’s more than likely to be fishy. sorry CP but these are some very fishy goings on.
Jenny Zhu had told me Ken was busy on the night of the Chinesepod bar meeting in January middle. I had not known about these things happened, and had innocently asked Jenny, “where is the boss”. She said, “you mean Ken?” “oh, he is busy with another appointment tonight. Well, now i guess that must have been outside of China, hahhaha. I hope Cpod survives, i love the service that company has offered, and i am a paid subscriber.
Looking at the big picture, it makes it harder for us foreigners living and working in China – especially those of us who own companies. Very irresponsible behavior.